Friday, October 28, 2011


Most regular readers of my humble little blog are probably aware of the recent spat between PUA & MRA sectors of the manosphere.

I think I'm in a rather unique position on this topic, as I initially started this blog as an MRA blog...and as I eventually discovered the PUA blogosphere and began to study Game theory, I incorporated it into developing a "big picture" in my mind and in my writing here regarding our current Brave New World Order dystopia.

I never saw any inherent fault line or schism between the two spheres. I think it's entirely unnecessary....I believe they both serve important spheres of influence for men (and women) to learn from, and that men should simply learn all that they can from the multitude of views on the various topics and see how they apply to their own lives and their own situations and do the best they can in dealing with the challenges and obstacles our modern dystopia presents us.

Then again, I'm the guy that doesn't believe MRA should mean "Men's Rights Activism" since I've come to the view that our current state of affairs has been deliberately effected, and the political system doesn't need to be "fixed" because it's doing exactly what is intended.

Activism in the confines of the current political system is a dead end.

Which is why I've always said that I identify myself as a MRA - an advocate for Men's Rights Awareness.

No, it is my firm contention that the only real and meaningful way in which the MRA blogosphere CAN effect real change, is on an individual level:


To raise awareness of the truth of the reality that we all live in.

To enable people to see things clearly, so that when they make goals and try to direct their lives towards achieving them, they do so knowing the full score so they can avoid many of the pitfalls our Brave New World Order has created to entrap us all in our deliberately distorted and contorted understanding of the gender roles and how they affect our lives.

MRA/MGTOW blogs gave me a complete understanding of just what the hell is going on in the system; the injustices of the divorce court industry and the true affect the feminist movement has had in socially engineering our modern dystopia.

PUA blogs gave me an understanding of the basic, primal nature of male/female gender roles.

To be perfectly clear here - one of the biggest agitator's on this topic has been a guy who goes by the handle Alek Novy. He conflates anyone and everyone who tries to advocate for GAME THEORY as the exact same thing as PUA shucksters and snake oil salesmen. Yes, there are guys that have sought to make a quick buck off of men's frustrations in today's sexual marketplace.

Understanding GAME THEORY is not the same as promoting $10000 boot camps and seminars or selling $600 CD sets. Alek's entire argument rests on the premise that men don't need to "pay" anything to learn how to have success in trying to hook up with women.

Of course. Most folks who are regular readers/commenters/bloggers in the manosphere don't pay for this shit, and at most are trying to sell E-books like Roosh's Bang. It's not the same as the PUA "industry" that Novy seeks to condemn any and all "gamer" bloggers and commenters.

Guys like Alek are causing disputes where none are necessary.

Now we have people on both sides attacking each other, to no one's benefit and everyone's detriment.

MRA - calling anyone that recognizes the value of Game theory as "pussy beggars" and "Gamers" calling MRA "spineless pussies."

I don't think anything good is going to come from the pending debate between Frost and Elam. It's just going to further fracture the manosphere.

But that's ok.

There's no "winning" here.

What it will do, is provide clarity, so the onlookers can decide which "side" here offers them the viewpoint to improve their own lives and their own struggles.

See, when you look at all of the problems Feminism has given us all to deal with, the root of this evil is collectivism.

Collectivism in a response to the problems of feminist/cultural marxist collectivism is destined to fail.

If you're a newcomer to this section of teh interwebz, my advice to you is to read all these various viewpoints, and figure out for yourself what will give you the best tools to live your life the best you can.

Take for instance, Commenter CaslteD at AvFM's "Chateau Bullshit" article:

Although the term is “Game”, I just simply look at it as dating and relationship advice for men. What’s so bad about that? Good, useful advice, not the crap we’re taught by the women (and white knights) in our families or the lies from mainstream society. Good game advice puts the man first, for once, and modern men need that badly. Feminist brainwashing has done extensive damage to male psychology and I think good game helps men understand the whys and hows of knocking the pussy off the pedestal and keeping the upper hand in relationships.

If you already know how to do that, then congratulations, but don’t act like it’s just a matter of being confident, acting aloof, being yourself, and you’re done! Yeah, right. Meeting women and getting laid isn’t easy for most men, otherwise we wouldn’t have tons written about the subject. Maintaining a healthy relationship isn’t easy either. I’ve seen countless men and young men over the years fuck up chances with girls who showed interest in them because they hadn’t a clue what to do. Some of you guys are older, so perhaps you forgot what it’s like to be a young and horny 20-something year old. They want girls and no amount of, “eh, you don’t need pussy, it’s not a big deal” is going to work on them.

There’s a lot of snake oil out there to sift through of course, like $600 CD sets, and one can bury themselves in the minutia of breaking down female psychology to the sub-atomic level, but if you’re smart you just learn bits and pieces that seem useful and appropriate for you and leave the rest.

Then again I’ve only read a few sites, mainly Roissy of course because he’s also anti-feminist and an entertaining writer. I’m not surprised there’s antagonism between gamers and mras, that’s just men being men and hating each other. It’s why we’re in this position to begin with.

He gets it...and I'm sure he's a lot better for it in his personal life, having discovered both MRA and PUA blogs, and taking the info from each side relevant to his own life and problems. It doesn't have to be either or, no matter what guys like Novy insist.

Think for yourself. Make up your mind, but above all, do so with complete awareness of all the various factors that come into play here.


Brendan said...

A good post. It should be an entertaining debate as well. I do think that the best approach is individualizing to find the best solution for oneself personally, and this often involves a smorgasbord approach. I am concerned, however, about some of the younger Game crowd overplaying Game into being a healthy way to reinforce male hierarchy and shame omega males and so on ... that is toxic stuff. Just as toxic as some of the stuff from more radical MRAs about abandoning all women as a class. We have the classic case (classic for our contemporary culture, anyway) of polarization and intensified radicalization inside each pole going on here.

Red said...

I've been hoping for a while that both MRA's and PUA's could forage a reactionary alliance against our system with some of the other reactionaries out there. It's a poor hope though. Even the people who finally took the red pill in one area don't seem to be interested in taking it all areas of life. No one wants to be told everything they learned was a lie. And men prefer to believe pretty little lies just like women unless their head is getting pounded in by the truth.

In the end we are probably better off just educating people in the truth and waiting for the system's propaganda arm weaken enough before we try to overthrow it. I believe that your Men's Rights Awareness is on the right track in this goal.

The dust up between game people and MRA people is just a natural group on group conflict because both groups cater to a very similar group of men. Human groups always splinter and fight like this. It's in our DNA.

Koanic said...

Do you actually disagree with the substance of my "spineless pussies" article or do you just not like the inflammatory title?

Keoni Galt said...

I think it's the perfect response to being called "pussy beggars." I laughed when I saw your title, I knew exactly what you were getting at.

Keoni Galt said...

And...there is one thing I do certainly disagree with, Joseph:

Children are NOT replaceable.

Wait til you have one of your own (if you ever do), than you'll see that actually this was probably the most offensive thing you wrote to any Father who's had his kids taken from him.

I'll tell you this much, if anyone tries to take my kid from me, you'll hear about the "crazy dude in Hawaii" who went out with a bang.

The Dawn, the Sky, and the Sun said...

Hey Keoni Galt, I enjoy your writings as the Hawaiian libertarian and contributor to In Mala Fide.

I was wondering if you could add me to the blogroll on the left. My blog goes over a mix of topics, but is primarily anti-liberal/feminist/conventional wisdom, with a bit of paleo diet and self-improvement.

Its the Alpha Anomaly at


Ulysses said...

I laughed at most of "Spineless Pussies," but agree with what Keoni said about the kids. Beyond the bond I share with them, they are my genetic legacy, my connection to earthly immortality. I'll be damned before I stare into the void and abandon them. They need their father and I will never willingly let that need go unsated.

Being a patriarch, active and present, is a positive way to take action for the future.

But, as Keoni wrote, if you don't have kids then it is hard to understand the stickiness of genuine fatherhood. In the abstract it seems less of a calling than it is in reality.

Athol Kay said...

The whole thing just seemed staged.

Anonymous said...

Yeah I honestly feel like that Alek Novy guy's website is just one big troll. It's like he just wants to see how many people he can rile up.

Anonymous said...

I think many current PUA are also MRA to an extent, but it looks like Elam is running with Alek Novy's trollbait to such an extent that I see little chance for any real reconciliation between the two camps, so... oh, well. The schism. It grows.

*** ******** said...

after you bang 30 or chicks, you'll inevitably realize one girl, a long ago, or in my case, several were actually legit, genuinely, awesome girls. but experience and loss are the best teachers. some of us have to chase the rainbow to know for a fact there is no pot of gold, or just to know what we had without realizing it.

red pill, blue pill. always.

Koanic said...

Hey Keoni,

I am not trying to deprecate the paternal bond. After all, it is the basis for the Christian religion.

My point was that children are replaceable, *compared to honor*.

Killing those responsible for stealing your children is an honorable move, and one I would endorse. Paying them is not.

Anonymous said...

I agree that Alex Novy's site is nothing but a troll. I think that him and Omega Virgin Revolt are the same person. "Alex Novy" spends a lot of time there.

Yohami said...

I had an exchange of words with Novy at OmegaVirginRevolt a few months ago. He ran that thing on me, conflating anything game with PUA scams and stuff, calling me a crazy religiou person (while acting like one). I assumed he was confused or hurt so I left him alone. Not sure whats the deal though. Is that position for real?

finndistan said...

I am eagerly waiting for the show this tuesday and am hoping that Paul will be able to put aside his grievances and work together with the philosophical gamers like Roissy, ParadigmShift, Roosh and so on. These guys are not the snakesoil sellers and have opened maybe more young men's eyes than Paul, due to the age appropriateness of their message.

MRA and Game (I do not like the term PUA, as I do not see an art to bending the choice that women make nowadays) are two chemicals that are not an acid and a base but they act as catalysts for eachother.

More importantly, both open eyes. Both have a chance to provide the red pill. Once the pill is swallowed, the journey is underway.

Their fight will just make things more difficult for all of us.

Koanic said...

I don't think the fight is bad.

The mutual criticism helps separate the good from the bad in both movements.

It's purely an internal internet thing, anyway. Nobody takes this conflict seriously in the real world.

Long Duc Dong said...

Who cares? The sluts and gamers can have each other.

Gx1080 said...

Fuck Alexnovy. He reads like a whiny bitch who thinks that ALL CAPS is cruise control for cool.

The only guy worse than him is the guy with at least 3! sockpuppets that goes "hurr durr gamers have no self-respect".

That out, this mess should keep the bloggers busy and the readers amused. Win-win.

Keoni Galt said...

No prob Dawn Sky Sun.

Joseph - Killing those responsible for stealing your children is an honorable move, and one I would endorse. Paying them is not. Yeah, this was a big point that Dr. Amneus repeats over and over again in The Case for Father Custody - Child support and Alimony is really nothing more than the State forcing a Father to subsidize the destruction of his own family. I wouldn't subsidize that either.

Finn - I don't like the term PUA either...but in my case, I discovered Game when the PUA message boards and blogs were the only place discussing it on the net. I think of it this way: a criminal and a lawman could both discuss the utility, practicality and effectiveness of a certain gun, but both use it for completely different purposes.

Boar said...

I'm new to this whole PUA/Game community vs. MRA community debate, but I don’t really see any merit in it, since both spheres are actually not that different, in my opinion.
It was probably instigated mainly by idiots like Alek Novy – by God, that man is irritating. I didn’t know what I was getting into when I tried to argue with him; after debunking his childish arguments why Game sucks with ease, he still clung to his ideas that learning about Game is the equivalent of joining a cult. After reading this article and comments, I see that the man clearly has reputation for being a troll, so I feel more satisfied now, knowing that other people recognize his folly as well.

Anyway, I’m looking forward to Elam vs Frost debate; it will be interesting to see what points are raised. Like you said, Keoni:

What it will do, is provide clarity, so the onlookers can decide which "side" here offers them the viewpoint to improve their own lives and their own struggles.

Anonymous said...

I am in agreement that this debate should not divide the 'movement' but instead each approach has its own merits.

There are tools for the male that both MRAs and PUAs can provide, so thinking that this is a winner-take-all debate is a non-starter.

The fact is, men have had a dearth of advice and wisdom from lamestream media (especially here in feminized Canada), and bloggers such as yourself, Antz, Zed, Heartiste, Bardamu, Price and Elam provide a great service.

- Lovekraft

Troy Lee Messer said...

I am new to this blog. A shame because I am libertarian too. I go to for my libertarian fix.

I am new to the whole PUA thing. I found the Chateau site and a couple others a few weeks ago and I love them. IMHO, all they are doing is using the knowledge of women's psychology, beliefs, and values to get laid.

Alte said...

My point was that children are replaceable, *compared to honor*.

Is that an argument that actually sways men? Children aren't replaceable at all, and I can only consider God of higher worth to me than my own children. Although, I suppose that explains "honor killings".

Anonymous said...

"I never saw any inherent fault line or schism between the two spheres."

Same here. The truth is the truth. There is no contradiction between political reality (MRA) and sexual reality (Game).

MsArchangel said...

Troy wrote:
"I am new to the whole PUA thing. I found the Chateau site and a couple others a few weeks ago and I love them. IMHO, all they are doing is using the knowledge of women's psychology, beliefs, and values to get laid."

Oh good lord! Switch positions for a sec -- imagine you're now grown up and you have an 18-yr-old daughter. Do you still "love it"? Still think it's great to trick women into giving away free sex instead of valuing themselves and their bodies highly enough to REQUIRE a commitment before sharing their bodies with some guy? Will you teach your daughter it's okay to slut around as long as the guy SEEMS like he's a good guy (cause, you know, he PLAYS THE GAME well?!)?

Yes, it sucks that young men can't/don't get all the sex they desire (welcome to the human species). And it doubly sucks that young women are taught in this pathological society that catting around like a male is good for them (hint: it's not!)

But instead of addressing the destructive system laid over 'normal' human inter-sex relations; instead of trying to be a man with HONOR who does not abuse another man's daughter(s) "because he can"; and instead of gleefully participating in the system that is destroying families and (what's left of) our societies -- yeah, let's keep learning how to trick women into bed. THAT sure makes you man! (NOT!)

Yohami said...


Girls were already putting it out for bad boys / jerks and having sex without thinking marriage. You can blame that on feminism, sexual liberation, empowerment memes, etc. Girls themselves push the nice / good / beta dudes apart, and pick the alternative route you are complaining about.

Game is not about convincing girls into dropping their morals. Girls already have none.

Game is about the guy losing his own morals and acting like a bad boy, so these girls will pay him some attention.

If anything, Game can corrupt the guy. Its not about corrupting the girl.