Friday, March 18, 2011

Let's Just Be Friends With "Nice" Guys

Susan Walsh thought she would do a quick throwaway posting of an xkcd cartoon about a "Nice Guy" trying to gain a relationship by befriending a woman (rather than directly attempting to seduce her), and was surprised at the amount of debate and discussion it generated in the commentary.

The first amusing thing, is Susan's initial reaction to the cartoon:

The scary thing is, this guy’s reasoning makes perfect sense to me! It seems like such a good strategy! Aarrggh, why do chicks dig jerks?

Chicks don't dig jerks. They dig Alpha psyco-sexual and social dominance. Many "jerks" have those Alpha qualities...but not all men with those qualities are "jerks." Women will put up with an Alpha's jerk behavior in the same way men will put up with a bitchy, shallow woman -- if she's hot enough.

As far as strategies go....from the male perspective, it is not a good strategy at all. I think Susan deems it so, because she thinks "nice" guys are desirable. She's mistaking alpha guys who are nice (which probably describes her husband), for the fearful, passive-aggressive, effeminate strategy of the "nice guy" in the comic.

Note the "nice" guys rationale in his thinking:

See, I don't want to consider that you might not be attracted to me. I'm scared of rejection, so I've decided relationships should grow smoothly out of friendships."

Scared of her rejection? That automatically shows you that he's already put her up on a pedestal. He also lets fear dictate his decision making...which shows that he's letting his emotions dictate his behavior. That is not masculine behavior at all.

When you have problems, I'll be there for you, night after night. Selflessly.

"Selflessly?" This guy is playing the emotional tampon for her in the hopes of gaining access to her without her clothes on. That's what you call "selfless?" This is an example of the the male rationalization hamster getting warmed up for a run on the wheel.

I'll tear down the jerks you date, and wait for you to realize how good I am for you.

That's as passive-aggressive as you can get. Is this "nice?"

Maybe to a woman that's "nice," since female social interaction usually involves a level of fake niceties when confronted with female rivals. For women, that's par for the course. For men, that's effeminate and cowardly.

Before I knew better, I used to have female friends who would come to me and complain about the "jerks" they were dating (and no, I was not being their friend because I was hoping to hook up...these are friends who I know after having been married. I'll get to this idea of "real" opposite gender friendship in a future post.) I used to commiserate, offer condolences and play at being "understanding."

Not after having taken the red pill.

For the past several years, whenever a female friend started complaining to me about her boyfriend, I put the responsibility squarely on her shoulders.

"You picked him as your boyfriend. If he's that terrible, than why are you still with him? No one's forcing you to stay with him."

Needless to say, I no longer have female friends who complain about their men to me. Good.

Back to the "nice guy":

"You won't want to hurt my feelings, and I won't ever force the issue."

If she is aware of your physical attraction for her, and she persists in her friendship with you, rubbing your face in her dating escapades with "jerks," she is using you for attention...but the fact that she doesn't want to hurt your feelings means she feels sorry for you. She pities you. If you understand what hypergamy means, where do you think that puts you on her attractiveness scale?

But the more likely scenario is that she is utterly clueless about your attraction to her. She is taking your platonic behavior at face value and unawares of your ulterior motives.

"Bit by bit, I'll make you depend on me."

As her emotional tampon. Her BFF...not her lover.

"You'll think about how long it would take to build this kind of connection again."

With another friend.

And in a moment of weakness...and'll give in.

So ladies, explain to me how that is in any way "nice?"

"It'll feel comfortable and natural. You'll quietly try to revise your definition of love and try to be happy. And sometimes you will be."

It will feel comfortable and natural for "nice guy" because he's finally realized his goal. She, on the other hand, will be engaging her rationalization hamster to try and deal with the fact that she was "tricked" into bed by her "friend" in a moment of emotional distress and weakness. That hamster can only run for so long before it gets tired.

Girl: "I'm going to date this jerk."
"Nice" Guy: "But he doesn't respect you!"

But "jerk" makes her 'gina tingle. Nice guy doesn't. He never did.

He was her emotional tampon.

Like all tampons, he only got into her vajayjay when she was bleeding...but as soon as the bleeding stopped, he got discarded.


Paige said...

Great analogy with the tampon.

My reaction to that was similar to yours. I saw the man as just not having the gumption to really go after what he wants instead preferring to just pine for it. How is such a guy going to lead his family into good things if he can be satisfied by so little? Women want men with a hunger...because that hunger translates to success in life and passion in the bedroom.

Anonymous said...


Seems you've missed the nuanced discussion that took place after you exited the thread on Susan's blog.

But let's take that cartoon for a moment. Let's assume this is indeed the guy's "plan".

Just how long do you think he would have to wait for this "plan" to work? Months? Years? More likely, years. Does a playa wait around for years for one piece of tail? And what makes you think after all that he'd ditch her? Maybe he really does feel for the woman and is merely following the stupid advice and romantic comedy scripts that have been shown in the theaters and handed from well -meaning mother to son for over a generation now.

See, you are right in that this is NOT the best strategy. Indeed, best friends to lovers to marriage as a plan fails over 90 percent of the time, and even when it succeeds it is usually because the guy gets out of the friendzone via some unconscious use of game. But it's a plan that shy and socially awkward men think is reasonable BECAUSE they don't know better.

The feminists have really done a n umber on the "NiceGuy". They've successfully redefined him in many people's mind from a clueless yet well meaning schmuck to a guy with a long term plan to get into a woman's panties, and then I suppose hook her to him via elaborate mental games or else just pump and dump her same as any other jerk.

Most of the "Nice Guys" really are nice, they are just operating on a bad script. I know, I used to be one. I was nice to everyone (not just pretty girls) and I had a few girls whom I had crushes on and befriended hoping to see if it would lead to more later. Luckily I was never such a tool that I allowed myself to be used like some of these guys do( as an example:,11473/), but I can understand them. There's usually lots of pain involved on both sides because the feelings of the young man are usually real.

In short, I'm of the opinion that most "nice guys" need advice and not censure.

Keoni Galt said...

Anon - I agree 100%. I was a "nice guy" back in high school...but it was never my strategy for getting my own girlfriends or eventually my wife either.

But I was a "nice guy" with plenty of girls in my peer group, because I wanted to be liked and was certainly brainwashed by all of the influences of our culture about how men should treat women.

But when I wanted a relationship with a girl, I always used the direct route of asking her out or making a move on her if I got IOI's from her.

Anonymous said...

Being a nice guy is both a good thing and bad thing in my opinion. First, the bad thing is that it will hurt a nice guy's status as being in the friend zone.

But for me, it's a good thing that you can avoid a lot of drama. Just leave and never get bothered.

Although this can work against you if that girl who only saw your nice guy be a total alpha dick. Oops. Now your cover's blown. Whacha going to do?

Nomat said...

Yeah just psycho rape them, they love it or beat them and rape them like a psycho jerk, they really love that.

Anonymous said...

I was nice to everyone (not just pretty girls) and I had a few girls whom I had crushes on and befriended hoping to see if it would lead to more later.

Yup, me too. I wish I'd had someone tell me everything Keoni said in this post!

One of the most painful conversations I had when I was in the living hell of LJBF was when she solicited my advice regarding her boyfriend's impotence. (Yeah, I shoulda pointed at my crotch and said, "this one works just fine!" but I didn't.) Poor guy woulda died of shame if he'd known she was telling me about it.

Keoni Galt said...

I have never deleted a non-spam related post on this blog in over 4 years.

Nomat, what are you trying to say? Because the way I read it, you're a serious candidate to be the first justified deletion here.

The Private Man said...

Emotional tampon...

Such a perfect description for the typical NiceGuy(tm).

In my previous life, I should have been given the nickname "Tampax".

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namae nanka said...

"And in a moment of weakness...and'll give in.

So ladies, explain to me how that is in any way "nice?""

I think he's drunk too much on the kool-aid that it's bad to coerce or we should say initiate sexual feelings in a woman, and a man should rather wait for her to do so. Especially in times when she's vulnerable and he's there to help.

And that it's the moral thing to do, what with all the claptrap about men feeling entitled to sex in relationships(marriage included).

Simon Rierdon said...

Hey Keoni, Thanks very kindly, I just found out that you've linked me to your site.

"He was her emotional tampon"
"Like all tampons, he only got into her vajayjay when she was bleeding...but as soon as the bleeding stopped, he got discarded."

That's got to be one of the all time classic statements on any blog.

MW said...

Woman friend of mine has several orbiters (I have since extracted myself from that). I asked her about the dynamics with these guys one day. The hamster wheel smokeshow was truly impressive.

She implied that they were all chumps and that her vag was made of gold. Which some swarthy alpha has been ravaging for the last two years while she tries to get him to commit.

It boiled down to her thinking that said nice guy chumps deserved to be used by her because they are stupid and clueless. She'll continue to take advantage of their fawning until they wise up.

I suggested that was very selfish of her, and the hamster looked at me with those big eyes and said, "I know! So what?" I opined that they had no idea what she was doing..."I know that, silly" was the reply. Even if they've never been taught to see through this selfish manipulation? "Of course, that's their problem, I hope they never learn."

Lights went on in my brain! ding! Ever since I've been more aloof she's always contacted me first, unlike when we first me me going out of my way for her.

The late great Solomon2's Good Perrrson post fits her to a T.

*** ******** said...

emotional tampon.


harsh and exactly what the f*** it is. apropos and concise wording if i've ever heard/read it.

and yeah, the older you get and the more you insist women bear the responsibility for their actions/choices/passive acceptance of life.....the less female friends you have.

mark my words.

YOHAMI said...

most girls are emotional tampons, passive aggressive, waiting on the moment of weakness to jump over your bones and ride your cock

that if you are alpha, and are not pursuing them

so many girls become female orbiters, aka "nice guys" if they were men, doing favors, calling at strange hours, labeling every other girl as a "bitch" and whining about how they feel ignored and neglected and getting drunk and having sex with lesser men while dreaming for a chance with the alpha man they are after

and most of these orbiter girls have so many orbiter guys around, paying for their messes and sucking the negative emotions out of these girls so they can continue the chase

anyway, thats why susan says it sounds logical to her. girls do behave like nice guys, in all its ugliness.

at the end they are all orbiters around the alpha cock