Monday, June 2, 2008

Subvert the System

I check up on every single link on my blogroll, every single day that I log on to the internet and actually have the time to do the reading. If I miss a few days (and I never log in on the weekends), I eventually find the time to catch up on the readings I missed previously.

I've noticed more than a few bloggers have taken great pains to define themselves as of late. Some proudly proclaim they are NOT MRA. Others will say they are strictly MGTOW. And still others simply say that they are anti-feminist. Bloggers from whom I respect and read every entry they make all have differing are some examples:

From Pook's "Time to Move Beyond MGTOW:

When food and poison compromise, which is the victor? It is the poison. Eating it may be sustaining... for the short term... but your body fills up with these poison toxins. You begin to lose your ambition, your passion, and generally become filled with bitterness.


For as much as we mock feminists for being negative, for getting with women to talk bad about men, it is becoming more and more clear that MGTOW is becoming more like the mirror image. Behavior by behavior, a MGTOW male acts very similar to a feminist in lifestyle and habit. You begin to live alone, have meetings with guys to 'talk bad about women' (to ease existential pains), and write bad essays.

I think it is becoming clear that marriage and children is a natural longing in not just women but men as well. Nature did not intend gender avoidance. I believe generally everyone is repelled by the negative pessimistic tone found on MGTOW. However, people return consistently for a dose of the poison to ease the existential pain (caused by the natural longing of wife and children which is found in every culture and time). Once convinced by the rantings that women are more painful than pleasurable, the male goes off semi-satisfied. But, alas, the natural longing creeps up again causing the male to return.

I think by and large, Pook is correct in this assessment of the MGTOW community. And, as I was already married, long before I ever even thought much about feminism, the Matriarchal subversion of society, divorce and all of the other topics for which we are all familiar with, it's not like I could embrace MGTOW as a personal philosophy in dealing with the current state of affairs.

But I understand it. I've seen the system wreak havoc and destroy the lives of men, women and children in my own personal family members, friends and acquaintances. It is because of witnessing these experiences first hand that I understand the MGTOW mentality, for it is a logical reaction to the injustices dealt out by our current system.

This is why I link to MGTOW supportive blogs. I may not believe in MGTOW (still married...ten year anniversary coming up this month), but the MGTOW blogosphere and messageboards do serve a valuable function in the MRA movement - they provide a cautionary tale to previously ignorant men about the reality of life in the Matriarchal-dominated Western Civilization.

Same goes for outright, blatant and often vulgar blogs dedicated to vehement misogyny - such as the Eternal Bachelor. I do not agree with everything Duncan writes. I personally do not choose to resort to the vulgarity in most of my own writings that guys like Duncan do, but, like MGTOW, I understand exactly where this anger and rage is coming from...and that it most certainly is justified. My only reservation is that the angry MRA/MGTOW should heed Pook's warning - subsuming yourself in hate will turn you into the mirror image of the feminists you oppose so vehemently.

Pook also discusses MRA in his latest post, More Reasons Why I Am Not MRA:

There is nothing wrong with single issue advocates. The problem occurs when it starts to override everything else. Take the Elian Gonzalez scenario. MRAs, seeing only the boy returned to his father, begin immediately applauding. They cheer the Janet Reno who sent the troops to invade the house for the boy on one side while condemning Janet Reno for Waco. Never mind that children belong to the State, not fathers, in Cuba.

One of my posts when I first created this blog was based on the same observation Pook made, about having a single issue begin to override everything else. From Avoiding Ideological Monomania:

We need to be aware of the dangers of falling into a monomaniacal mode of thinking, simply because monomania is a primary attribute of modern day feminists...i.e. they see everything and everyone and every action as yet another manifestation of "Patriarchal Oppression." We need to avoid such specious and flawed analytical predilections to avoid becoming like the feminist useful idiots that are quite adept at repeating the propaganda points they've been indoctrinated with, but simply CAN'T engage in a discussion with opposing viewpoints and disagreement.

I also happen to agree with Rex Patriarch on his thoughts on "MRA" and the most public MRA today:

I'm going to revisit this topic again. For those of you who are just starting out as a MGTOW. I didn't say MRA. I'm not an MRA. I'm not marching around trying to get a corrupt government to change it's stripes or spots. Whatever it is. Even if it did change somehow I would still never trust it wouldn't change back again. Screws that. Let it burn to the ground. Die the death it deserves. Girly men like Glenn Sacks can whine all day long about how we need to do this or that. Dudes like him are already caught up in the system that will eventually destroy them. They are on death row. I'm not. You should not be either.

In my opinion, Glenn Sacks does good job of exposing the various issues of feminism and raises awareness on the important points in the public sphere on the injustices of the family courts, parental alienation, peonage via child support and alimony, and exposing and opposing the blatant misandry of the mainstream mass media.

But Glenn is clueless when it comes to politics and the system that has been the primary actor in creating the various facets of misandry and injustice that he works to oppose. He is a self-described liberal Democrat. I simply cannot fathom how the man can work so hard to expose injustice in the system and try to bring about changing it...yet still fail to make the connection between the liberal democrat advocacy and legislation of socialism as the primary means to promote the feminist zeitgeist he is trying to fight at the same time.

In my point of view, I really don't care about labels...I only care about truth. And whatever form that it manifests itself, the truth itself is what is important. But that doesn't mean I am "MRA" in the sense of being a true "activist." I use the term "MRA" as a convenient label to encompass any action, thought, behavior or idea that counters the conventional, mainstream, feminist point of view.

And it is keeping this in mind why I have bothered to make this rather lengthy post as to why I have a blogroll that includes many folks for whom I may not agree in part with.

I'm not looking for ideological purity.

I simply seek to promote any thoughts and ideas that are currently subverting the system of Matriarchy and all of the misery it inflicts on humanity. MRA, MGTOW, vulgar misogyny...they all have their own place in exposing the truth and subverting the system that so many are still ignorant of, having been raised and indoctrinated in the Feminist-Matrix.

The more people become aware of the important issues in the MRA/MGTOW or whatever other label you want to call this...the more we work to subvert the system.


. said...

MGTOW does not necessarily mean "marriage strike," although it has come to mean that for many.

It means more about creating "armies of one."

The eternal downfall of the MRM has been that men have failed to gain any meaningful organization. It is just too difficult, and men keep leaving. Father's Rights Advocates think it is all about custody rights, others think DV Shelters for men are the most important thing... what ended up happening was that those who rose up in any significance within the MRM, spent a good deal of their power trying to suppress the views of those "beneath them."

The result of all of this was that men would get frustrated, dissillusioned, and then march away from the whole works.

So, Men Going Their Own Way is just as much as exactly what it says, as it is about the marriage strike.

It just as much means: Stop hanging out on forums and getting bullied around by group think. Start your own blog and say what you have to say. Don't let anyone be your general. Be an army of one.

For me, this has been the best thing around. I was so frustrated by what I found with the online MRM a few years ago. Nothing could be discussed, as any REAL discussion would be "misogynist," and well, it was just junk that gave you a headache.

Since Men Have Been Going Their Own Way, however, the MRM has gotten one helluva a lot smarter, because no-one is holding anyone back except themselves.

Btw, you would have likely been run off of several boards I had been involved with before, HL. Many would have told you not to talk about Marxism-Communism. Many would have found what you said too misogynistic etc.

What used to be explored by the MRM was so narrow in focus that it was hardly worth wasting one's last two brain cells on trying to figure out the bigger picture.

MGTOW might disappear in the future, but, the willingness of men to start up their own blogs, say their own message, and seek a "greater community" by linking blogs and sites together rather than hide in some forum, will probably never go away.

Also, what you write on your blog gets picked up by google about 4 or 5 times more than what gets written on a forum. A lot of people have put enormous effort into writing things on forums believing they were "getting the message out," only for it to disappear in the depths of never-never land with 10,000 other meaningless forum posts. Howver, what you wrote on your blog last year does not "disappear." The little google bot keeps chugging through it, and people doing google searches keep getting exposed to it. In this way, the MRM is making a charge at owning part of this new medium called the internet.

You are an MGTOW, HL. Although, if don't want to call yourself one, that is in the MGTOW spirit too! Lol!

Keoni Galt said...

Thanks for your comments Rob.

Excellent point about the forum vs. blog and it's residual visibility!

I've been invited to several MRA/MGTOW forums, and I've registered for a few...but have always felt that my writing should be focused on building my own blog. I do like to read what others write on those forums, and I will peruse them every now and then...but if I got something to say, I'd rather do it here.

I mean, I can go 10 days without thinking of anything meaningful to write here, so often times, I don't. I never thought about your aspect of google longevity, but it's a great point! I was abstaining from the forums because I wanted to save all of my content for the blog.

As for MGTOW - perhaps. I'm one of the very few in this "MRA" blogosphere that is married, and readily admits to it.

I've said it before...the MRA/MGTOW blogosphere has really changed my life for the better.

I recognize feminist bullshit when I see it now. I see right through it. That awareness has made me so much more effective in dealing with interpersonal relationships and dealing with the System, the State and society in general.

It's also helped learn why I had so many problems in my marriage, and what I was doing wrong - I was catering to the feminist notion that a "real man" was one that catered to a women's emotional state to win her love and affection. After much reading - especially to the PUA sites (I should have included the PUA aspects in my post...perhaps my next one!) that gave me clear insight into the male/female relationship dynamic.

My wife and I get along so much better now, because of what I've learned from the MRA/PUA blogosphere.

One does not need to be a bachelor to oppose the feminist-communist-socialist matrix.

In fact, I think being able to forge a Patriarchal Family unit that withstands the perils of the modern day Matriarchal/Misandrist system is THE BEST MEANS OF FIGHTING IT.

The more kids you can create, and show them how to live in harmony as a two-parent family unit -- and that men and women have different roles to achieve this -- is the best way to fight the lies of feminism.

As for getting run off of a forum? For that to happen, I would have to care.

I don't.

I've been a member to several online forums for the past 9 years, on various topics from politics to sports. I spend more than enough time in that environment, and I did not really want to put the same kind of effort into the MRA/MGTOW sphere...otherwise why have a blog?

I do not presume to tell others what to do, but I do think in terms of what we are all presumably working for, blogs are the best way to raise awareness, while forums are more an exercise of mental masturbation in a group think echo-chamber.

Anonymous said...

But that doesn't mean I am "MRA" in the sense of being a true "activist."

Which is hwy I don't call myself an MRA- I'm not marching or anything, so I don't call myself an MRA. But I AM an anti-feminist and a Men's Rights Supporter.

Anonymous said...

I self-describe as MRA or MGTOW because I don't know of any better word.

What word is there for all the people who read our blogs with a sense of something in common?

I don't mean agreement, liking, matching values, politics, religion or even respect - I mean that quality that links all of us together irrespective of these things. People as diverse as Pook, You, Duncan Idaho, Fred X, Khankrum, Masculist Man, Bernard Chapin - and even Glenn Sacks.

We all know each other and read each other's stuff.

But we still have no common word we can agree upon for this.


Rob Case

MarkyMark said...


This was a thought provoking post; it was one I needed as well. Without going into too much detail, let me just say I've been struggling with finding my own voice as of late. Do I hold my views because I've decided that they're the truth as I best understand it? Or, am I going along with the crowd? Am I adopting the feminists' reasoning, outlook, and approach? I've been struggling a lot with that lately.

As for married vs. MGTOW, to me MGTOW was always about doing YOUR thing for YOUR reasons; it was all about doing what's best for you; it was about doing what YOU want to do, how you want to do it, etc. For me, MGTOW was, and is, all about being a man; it was all about going YOUR way, even if that meant going against the crowd in any way, shape, or form-especially if it were unpopular to do so. To me, MGTOW=real man.

It was never synonymous with marriage strike, though as Rob Fedders already pointed out, it has become that for many people; in the eyes of many, MGTOW=marriage strike nowadays. I think that MGTOW has taken on this connotation because, until recently, marriage was EXPECTED of most people; if you weren't married by 30, you had the probing questions, the awkward conversations, et al. Singles >30 years old were seen as pariahs. They still are, though the stigma isn't as bad as it used to be. When one would go against society's wishes like this, one was truly going his OWN WAY.

I might borrow this post for my blog, as it says a lot of things that I have wanted to say, but lacked the WAY to say them; i.e. I was unable to understand my views, let alone express them. Your post would be an excellent vehicle for doing that.

With that, I'm going to sign off, and enjoy the pasta salad I just made-yum!


Anonymous said...

Glenn Sacks reaches an audience size that others can't. Whatever the message is missing, it can lead to curiosity which leads to discovery.

"My wife and I get along so much better now, because of what I've learned from the MRA/PUA blogosphere."
Funny, my husband and I get along betterf rom what I've read on these blogs (except I don't read PUA stuff.)

"One does not need to be a bachelor to oppose the feminist-communist-socialist matrix."
Indeed, unnatural totalitarianism affects everyone negatively. Too few admit it exists.

Elusive Wapiti said...

HL, great post. A couple of comments:

Like you, I think that MGOTW has it's narrow uses, but is off-putting to the general public in the same way that many sectors of the feminist world are. They just sound loony and bitter and too ideologically strident.

And until I read this post, I never really linked MGOTW with marriage-strike stuff. To me, MGOTW is about men subscribing to an honorable, generative masculinity that is defined by men, not by women. Sometimes MGTOW is negative and selfish, but other times, MGTOW is about rebuilding a Patriarchal society where both men and women can flourish. It is this second function that we need to emphasize--that of culture change--otherwise we MRAs will be bitching about Big Matriarchy until the cows come home.

Sometimes I myself find that I get caught up in the ideological monomania that Pook described. I can tell because my writing gets much more angry and less thoughtful. Anger is good for a while, but guys need to move beyond that if they are to effect the changes that they want to see.

MRAs don't need to be monolithic to be effective. The feminists are terribly fractious, and look how influential they have been, and I suspect the culture was just as hostile to them in 1890 as it is to us in 2008.

Anonymous said...

I do consider myself both MRA/FRA and MGTOW. That is why I am in Mexico.

I was an activist, starting in 1978. I first tried the Glenn Sacks nice-guy-writer approach, and learned it worked about as well for me as it does for Glenn. Not at all. I turned nasty, and life got easier. Nothing gained, but that is the way it is when a group is demonized and they refuse to stand up for their rights.

A lot of good thoughts on these comments. The problem is, they don't correlate with history. One example is the statement that those on top of the movement oppressed those lower down.

That was because the guy(s) on top did all the work, and those lower down didn't want to do anything. They just wanted to run things, telling the workers what to do, and when those doing the work didn't obey, those lower down attacked until the groups were destroyed.

As far as anger, look at the blacks in the US. They were told for 100 years to be nice, not to be angry, and they gained: NOTHING.

When the Black Panthers got automatic weapons things changed fast. No more young men lynched for looking at white women. No more black girls gang raped by white boys, including the Sherriff's son.

I agree, anger is not the answer. Expat is the answer, to whatever degree you can make it work.

Anonymous age 66

Anonymous said...

The more I read of Pook's essay, the less I'm inclined to agree with him. The fault lies even in his metaphor:

"When food and poison compromise, which is the victor? It is the poison.

This isn't true. I've heard it said by medical men that it isn't the substance that is toxic, but the dose. This modification of the metaphor is probably more useful than a blanket declaration that MGTOW is toxic to all that subscribe to it.

MGTOW is no more than reminding men that they have individual freedom and that in order to exercise it, they must express it - in lifestyle, speech, whatever. We are not drones and there is no "one best way" we must all live by, no matter how much we may be cajoled into believing otherwise.

I think Pook is objecting to the tendency for people to obsess when they allow a single point of view to crowd out all others. This has universally been recognised as something to avoid for as long as there have been wise men, and is summed up in the phrase "Everything in moderation".

Rob Case

Sociopathic Revelation said...

I think Rob Case makes good points here.

I realize that some people, over time, would read an occasional post and believe that I share the virulent tonality that Eternal Bachelor possesses. I don't. I have nothing against him venting his spleen---there ARE actually many things to be upset with in our current situation.

In my case, the difference is that I'm calling it as I see it; I didn't coin the phrase "The Empress wears no clothes" or make up the title "Beauty is only Razor Deep" myself---but their implications are true and profound, nevertheless. I don't think of myself as hate-filled-24/7, but I'm not interested in sugarcoating the issues I discuss. I'm going to dig deeper and reveal it for what it is.

If Pook or anyone else believes it's blatant misogyny, he's missing the point or wishes he could go back into the denial that the fem-matrix bestows on him.

For me, anger or not, there is no going back.

I made a controversial statement many moons ago on NG's site that didn't bring much criticism, but probably raised a view eyebrows.

I stated something to the effect of I believe in hate, but you can't let it control you at all times, nor target everyone that you disagree with. Righteous indignance may be a fine line for some, but a distinction for others compared to sheer, blind hate. I admit, I care little for what feminists do and think and probably would not gel with them very much in person, but I wouldn't have much of a problem with them so much if they where not so intent on damning men and masculinity so much to the point of punishing the innocent. It HAS effected me personally and professionally, and I'm not content with burying my head in the sand. I'm going to continue to expose it for the sham it always was.

But getting back to Pook's impression of MGTOW; I agree with Rob Case here; we are not copycats parroting the party line at every juncture. I've had interesting discussions about the nature of women and how we should approach things from other men that came from a completely different vintage point (or misunderstood my views at first, only to still hold ground but find another perspective refreshing). Not to mention so many of the men live so many different lifestyles, from divorced men, family men, single men, players, expats, you name it. MGTOW has a few core tenets and that's it---it's for men to fill in the blanks and let themselves decide what is good and bad for their lives, ultimately, not government, feminism, the media . . . or Pook.

I suppose it gives him a bit of smug righteous of his own. What he doesn't realize that MRA or not, the MGTOW banner has struck a cord in so many men from varied backgrounds. If it's so destructive, then why are men finding solace in finding their own way, breaking the chains from those that would dupe, constrain, hold down, and hurt them?

Keoni Galt said...

"I suppose it gives him a bit of smug righteous of his own. What he doesn't realize that MRA or not, the MGTOW banner has struck a cord in so many men from varied backgrounds."

I think there's a bit of truth here as well...I like reading Pook's postings (whether I agree with him or not), he does make some great points - but he certainly spends a bit of time slamming the MRA/MGTOW movement as well -- and he does not have comments on his blog, so he really is not interested in dialog, only to criticize both the feminists, the Matriarchal structure of society AND the MRA/MGTOW movement, as if he is above it all.

Has anyone seen Pook participate or post anywhere else? Has he commented on anyone else's blogs or at any of the MRA/MGTOW forums in the past?

. said...
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Anonymous said...

Pook worships Pook. End of story. He reminds me of one of the totally mental & neurotic characters in the book The Game.

. said...
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