Wednesday, August 1, 2012

Lamentations of the Nice Guy




Why do you have to be so upset all the time?

What should I do? What would you like me to do?

Yes, Dear.

Would you like to do this? How about that?

Please, Hon?

What do you mean you can't do this anymore?

I'm sorry.

What do you mean you're unhappy? How can I make you happy?

Can I call you tomorrow?

Would you like to have sex tonight? Why not? PLEASE?!?!

Girls night out? I hope you have fun with the girls then!

I'm so sorry!

If it will make you happy, than I'll do it.

But I had plans! I made you a nice dinner, and picked up a good bottle of wine and I rented that movie you wanted to see and...... ah well, that's okay. Don't worry about it. You go out and have fun, I'll just save the food in the fridge and reheat it for you tomorrow. Don't worry about, it's not a big deal...I understand the sale ends tomorrow and you and your friends need to take advantage of it while it's so cheap. Have fun, and know that I'll be thinking of you while you girls are shopping! Love you!

Would you like this one, or would you like that one?

Will you accept my apology?

If you don't like it, I have the receipt so that you can return it and get something you do like!

Would you like to hear this song your beauty inspired me to write for you?

I'll make it up to you...I PROMISE!

What do you think about this? Is it good? Do you like it? Maybe you'll like it better if did this instead?

What should we do today?

How come you never want to have sex anymore? 

Why won't you accept my apology?

Wow, he's such a jerk! Why do your friends always go out with guys like that?

Should we go to counseling?

Can I go fishing with Dave this weekend? PLEASE?!?!

Would you like me to hold your purse for you?

Will you make love to me?

Sure I'll get your tampons for you....which brand do you prefer? Absorbent or Super-Absorbent? Do you need any pads, too?

Where do you want to go? What would you like to eat?

OF COURSE you don't look fat in those jeans!

I feel like we need to work on our communication skills. I feel like we don't have meaningful conversations anymore, and I really want us to become more intimate.

Would it be okay if I go surfing with Joe tomorrow? I'll be back in time so we can do something...

NO, I was NOT looking at her!

Okay, I'll sell it or give it away...I don't really need it.

I'm sorry.

Anything you want...I'll do it!

What do you mean I always lie? I do NOT!

Do you love me as much as I love you?

Would you like to hear this poem I wrote for you?

Steve is having his bachelor party this weekend. Don't worry though, I'm not going, as there will be strippers there and I know how you don't want me to be around things like that. Don't worry, it's okay, he'll understand. Yeah, we've been friends since elementary school, but he knows how important our relationship is and that I would never disrespect you like that!

You are the most beautiful woman on the face of the earth!

How can we make our relationship better?

Can you please kiss me?

I'm sorry....

Do you need help with that?

Yes, it's my fault...again. I'm sorry.

Would you like me to....

Hey....I said I'm sorry!

Please don't hang up on me....hello? HELLO?!?!?


Oh the painful recollections of my former self and how I lived a life walking on eggshells and fearful dishonesty.

I was just trying to be the Nice Guy. The archetype of the supposed type of guy women say they want.

Trying to do and be all the things a man is supposed to, to make the relationship work. Being sensitive to her needs. Striving to please her, and make sure to avoid upsetting her as much as possible.

Checking with her on everything.

Constantly asking for reassurance that she was happy. Constantly asking for her approval.

Making sure I was trying not to do anything that would upset her. This included telling a lot of "white" lies to try and avoid upsetting her. Striving to be supportive.

To let her needs, wants and desires supersede my own at every potential conflict.

This is precisely how guys slide into attraction killing "Beta-tude." How they regress in a relationship that started out hot and heavy, and end up sexless and constantly in conflict. As Rollo relates in his latest post on his own experience in his first serious relationship as a young man:

I was sitting in her dorm room wondering just what the hell had happened to the sexualized, happy, and indifferent Alpha junior-rockstar I had been just a few years prior. I didn’t realize it at the time, but I’d gone from idealistic teenager, to organic Alpha, to a defeated, needy beta on a dangerously close slide into omega-tude.

This is what happens when men get into a relationship and they slide into a mindset in which they are afraid of the female's emotional moods. Afraid of her disapproval, and having no confidence in anything they do in trying to please her or have a relationship with her. When men fall into this relationship dynamic, she WILL lose attraction for you.


This post was inspired in part by an exchange between van Rooinek and Doomed Harlot over at Dalrock's:


Doomed Harlot: I guess I just don’t understand the “nice guy” mindset here…. I have never understood the attitude that being nice entitles you to something from women.


van Rooinek: That attitude does not exist And the fact that you would pose this question, tells me that you have NO understanding whatsoever, as to what is going on here. So let me explain it to you simply.
It is not about unattractive guys assuming that niceness can overcome lack of attraction.

(That’s projection — only women…, rather, a subset of women… believe that. NO men do.)


It is not about “entitlement”. (That may be an aspect of female projection too…?)


This is about normal guys who have a lot going for them, physically, educationally, careerwise, etc, and who have (on the advice of parents, church, female “friends”, etc), treated women with kindness, respect, and consideration….. and are rejected BECAUSE OF that kindness, respect, and consideration!


van Rooinek's background as he's related over the course of many comments at Dalrock's is interesting. As a serious Christian man who wanted to get married and have children, he found it next to impossible to date the ladies in his Church, and remained a virgin until he finally got married at the age of 38. He blames it partially on all these ladies constantly rejecting him as a nice guy, while going after bad boys, thugs and jerks.

Unlike Rollo's experience, where he was Alpha in the beginning of the relationship and then found himself having slumped into deference and fallen into her persistent contempt, it looks like van Rooinek was in deference and approval seeking mode right out of the gate with every girl he tried to date.
 
Later in their debate, Doomed Harlot finally seems to understand the point van Rooinek was trying to make:


But I will say that women want RELATIONSHIPS. I’ve dated a few “nice guys” and many of them seem to think that the key to a woman’s heart is constant deference. In reality, I would rather have a man joke around with me, or tell me if he thinks I’m wrong about something, than squelch his real personality in order to try to ingratiate himself. I’m not saying that’s what you were doing, but I’ve seen it. Sometimes things like “chivalry” for example, can get in the way of a man actually relating to a woman.

This is precisely it. What womyn like Doomed Harlot fail to comprehend is this: where do guys get this idea from? Where does this template of how relationships are "supposed" to work like, come from?  Why do guys fall into this pattern of supplication and deference when their relationship did not start out that way?


In short, the blue pill.

This is the projection of a false reality reinforced over and over again in men's minds by our mass media driven, socially engineered, gynocentric culture. We are programmed to avoid becoming the stereotype of the ridiculously macho man. The archetype of the "insecure male trying to compensate for having a small dick." We are programmed to "get in touch with our feelings" and avoid being the insensitive Neanderthal brute. The last thing we want to be, we are told, is A TYPICAL MALE.

This is where the "nice guy" comes from.

In the case of a guy like van Rooinek, secular society's 'nice guy' meme's are doubly reinforced by a feminist subverted Christianity (aka Churchianity,) that focuses on male sexuality as sinful and debased, while holding up women as the moral arbiters of sexual purity and spiritual superiority. van Rooinek was not just a nice guy, he was a Christian nice guy...a double dose of deference to the female imperative. No wonder so many young men no longer attend church regularly across the Western world.

This is also why many Men don't find relationship success unless they discover the game-changer that is the red pill, especially Christian men.

38 comments:

Ras Al Ghul said...

It surprises me that women don't "get" why men think this is the way they're supposed to be, when you look at any Mainstream relationship guru secular or church telling them repeatedly this is how to behave.

But its not just society, its the boy's mothers and fathers telling them to be nice to their sister, that you need to "respect" wymyn simply because they are wymyn. Thou shalt not hit wymyn, or get angry, or be anything but supportive.

And they get told that they just don't "understand" things as well as wymyn, that wymyn are better socially, they are better communicators (Which is laughable, they talk more, they communicate less, they speak in diabolic language as Greene's art of seduction would describe it).

Its everywhere. They are bombarded with messages that they're not as good as wymyn and that their emotions are "dangerous" while wymyn get a pass at everything.

And then wymyn are surprised that most men fall into this default mode when its they easiest way to slide by in life.

No disapproval, no sanctions, no trouble . . .

no fullness of life.

Question said...

Is there a middle ground between alpha bad boy playa and AFC?

van Rooinek said...

I think I explained the source of the "deference" in my post to Doomed Harlot:

myself: ...normal guys who have a lot going for them, physically, educationally, careerwise, etc, and who have (on the advice of parents, church, female “friends”, etc), treated women with kindness, respect, and consideration…..

And for what it's worth, when I finally had my "red pill" moment, I realized that the way I'd have to behave, to get the attention of modern Christian females, would have been, quite simply, to SIN. It wasn't worth the cost. My continuation of my "old" behaviors, was not cluelessness, it was a clear moral decision which I made with full knowledge of the awful consequences of doing right.

Should I instead have become UNkind, DISrespectful, and INconsiderate? How does that behavior stack up with the way the Bible tells a Christian to live? Yes, there's a rare monent when it's time to call some people a brood of vipers, or overthrow the moneychangers (or even the government ,cf 2nd Kings 9:6-7), but MOST of the time, a Christian man is supposed to be a gentleman.

I recall reading on the net... the very beginnings of the manosphere, ca 1997-8, how some of the first "red pill" guys (the term wasn't around yet of course), sadly lamented, they WISHED they could be nice guys but they had learned the hard way, they could not have access to women AND be nice, it was one or the other. I could visualize myself "gaming" my way into marriage (again, the term didn't exist yet), and then having to put up a false front of a badboy for the rest of my life... and I couldn't imagine anything lonelier, than being with someone who didn't know the real me and probably wouldn't like him if she did. I think it was Deti who said, or quoted another blogger as saying, that when he started using game to get chicks, he had the distinct feeling that he was "sleeping with the enemy". I didn't want to have that feeling in MARRIAGE.... .

DH:I would rather have a man joke around with me, or tell me if he thinks I’m wrong about something, than squelch his real personality in order to try to ingratiate himself

Uh, no... As a hardcore rightwinger I've never had any inhibitions about telling people that I thought they were wrong about various things! And I do laugh and joke with women. As for "squelching my personality".. ha, never done that... got into endless trouble at school and even at work sometimes over that. Indeed, become an @$$hole "gamer" would have required squelching my personality.

No, I'm not some limp wristed sop that defers to a woman's every whim, with no strong beliefs, interests, or boundaries of his own. I'm just NOT MEAN. And that, apparently is enough to get a whole hell of a lot of rejection. Many modern women think that if you're not mean, you're not a man.

Johnycomelately said...

Being a lifelong church goer it pains me to see good looking, upstanding and industrious blue pill chumps getting knocked back by overweight ugly pre menopausal women.

The same women that mates brag to you about screwing them in an alley way outside a night club.

The only way around it that I can see is banning women from being paid members (in Australia most churches are associations with paid members) stacking the council with red pillers and enforcing conservative etiquette.

A bit difficult when you know the bishop is a covert homosexual. Churchianity sucks.

The Dude said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus%27_interactions_with_women

I think as a Christian male the model to go by with how to treat women is how Jesus went about it. I would say that Jesus would be the "gamma male" in many respects. He stood up to women (most notably Martha or even his own mother Mary) or tested them when necessary (the Gentile woman)...but he also stood up for them at a time when women were 2nd class citizens. He showed compassion and respect to women as well. You put those traits into your personality and I guarantee you'll have success.

To put in perspective...how many women have bathed your feet in tears and wiped them up with their hair...or spent their lives following you? How many women stick around by your side when you go through the worst period of your life?

Anonymous said...

Question said...
Is there a middle ground between alpha bad boy playa and AFC?


Yes, it's called being a Man.
That is to say, being your own Man.

Amy Haines said...

Yes, it's called being a Man.
That is to say, being your own Man.


I will second this, Anon. My husband pretty much laid it on the line for me from day one we met. Hunting season was for hunting. I might not see him for days at a time. Don't expect him to be around for Thanksgiving, because he had been going away every year since he was 14 to hunt over the holiday weekend. There were other things, too. It wasn't defensive or rude; I found it rather refreshing that he was up front about his lifestyle and that he would not put his interests aside during the courting phase only to have trouble picking them back up after I'd grown accustomed to him being around all day and night.

I found it very easy to accept coming from him, because he also made his time with me HIS time, with me. And I loved that.

He still has his hobbies, his nights out with his friends from work, still hunts and goes fishing sometimes for days on end. He eats Thanksgiving dinner with us since we have kids now and does not want to be absent for those holiday moments, but leaves that night or early next day for his traditional hunting weekend. I have no problems with this. It's an unspoken agreement we have. He always comes home in one piece (and with meat for the freezer, a bonus). Even though we are not at all religious, we have a very traditional arrangement (I raise the kids and stay home and cook, he works). Our relationship is complementary and based on a trust built from the up-front honesty he showed me from day one.

I am certain there are women out there who rejected him based on his honesty about his life. Lucky me that they did, I suppose. I am certain there are many women who think I'm nuts to tolerate such behavior from my husband, but how can I complain? He comes home every night unless he's away on a trip, loves the kids and plays with them, provides a nice home for us, and in return I do what I think is the right thing: keep the kids safe and in order, read to them, keep the house clean, cook good food, manage the finances and never withhold intimacy, ever (I cannot think of a single time I've ever refused him, but I also find him quite stimulating so it's easy to say yes or to initiate).

There is some magic in my attraction to him, but we're just happy together because I'm happy to not make an issue over every little thing, like stray shoes in the hall or him staying out a few hours too long while having a beer. REally, in the long run of life, are you going to let those shoes or few hours at a bar be a deal-breaker for your relationship? Getting a grip on the big picture is something women on the whole have difficulty with. They cannot let things slide because it means no control RIGHT NOW, but life is a marathon, not a sprint.

van Rooinek said...

Amy, hunting was a litmus test for me. I needed to know if she was prohunting on the first date. She was. I married her.

van Rooinek said...

Amy...just remembered... Being a hunter can serve as "badboy" game in certain environments...if one is unethical enough to thus leverage it, as I was not:

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/dating-a-vegetarian-girl-is-a-sacrifice/#comment-242316

18yearold said...

I was raised my an extremely Christian mother who homeschooled me up until the 6th grade. My dad was always busy during my childhood so it really felt like I was raised by a single mother.

We went to church every Sunday, and I always felt irritated. The reason being that I didn't feel masculine. Always about guys cheating on their wives, and all about how husbands are clumsy.

Ever since discovering the red pill about a year and a half ago, I have felt so much better about myself. While I don't know everything, I know that there are a lot of delusions that I need to find out to the root of the core. Learning psychology along with game has actually helped my relationships with my guy friends become much better too.

I have limited relationships with women because I went to an all-guys high school (while limited I've still done well) and my mom is still very strict about me seeing girls.

I am going off to college in the fall and that will be the real test because of all the people I will meet. Every social situation now I treat as a game to be won, rather than relying on "chance."

I am so lucky I found the manosphere, as my life would be absolutely dreadful if it wasn't for it.

Anonymous said...

Keonigalt:
Yuck---that list brought back bad memories for me too.

Here's the problem with Doomed Harlot's reasoning in a nutshell: she has been educated in a feminist-oriented cultural system that has DISinformed her about everything male. This is where Dalrock & Co. get the shoe on the wrong foot. They continually ascribe the problem to men---being too 'alpha' or 'beta' or whatever.

The problem is NOT with men---the problem is with women.

Women are educated to hate men, detest us as inferiors, and seek to validate their supposed superiority over us at every turn. They can't be with good, responsible, or 'nice guys' because it upsets their ego-equilibrium. They have to go for bad boys, thugs, and jerks to maintain the sense of superiority that our culture instills in them.

It's the same with sex: most women in our culture are sexually frigid and only see sex, again, as ego validation. Since they inherently despise men, they can't bond with a man sexually---hence, again their predeliction for bums, losers, and thugs. There's no actual bonding that takes place in such a relationship.

Keoni G said...

Amy...just remembered... Being a hunter can serve as "badboy" game in certain environments

Why would you want to date vegans?

18 year old - heed the message of Roissy's "commandments for poon" make your life's mission your focus, not the ladies. Your time will come.

The reality of hypergamy means most of the women your age will be focused on the older guys while you will remain invisible. Learn about eating right, good exercise, and developing your talents. One day (and it will arrive sooner than you expect), you will be one of those older guys the younger ladies want, while they ignore their same age peers.

Keoni G said...

...but MOST of the time, a Christian man is supposed to be a gentleman.

vR, no arguments there. But a gentleman does not have to be supplicating or deferential - or unsure or not confident when dealing with the opposite sex.

Anonymous said...

Good to hear about the deer hunting,one of the last bastions men can use for time along or with other guys.
Every year there is one or three guys who "have to" bring the wife along.

He loses respect all around.
She's gonna have her nights out with the girls,so be it, but for gosh sake men, stand up for your time alone.
It's win-win.
Absence makes the heart grow fond!

Continual supplication is a recipe for failure.
Grow a pair already!

Jow Blow said...

>>Why would you want to date vegans?

Because you can needle them constantly about it, and say things like, "well, you may not be willing to eat any of my steak right now, but I'm going to make you eat a big hunk of meat later on tonight, and you'll like it."

Works like a charm.

They shit & fart like a whole herd of horses though; lentil bake will do that to you. Just a heads up for you. Don't let her pull the covers over your head. It's like a super power.

Anonymous said...

18 y/o & Keoni:

'The reality of hypergamy means most of the women will be focused on the older guys while you remain invisible.'

I don't know about that. Most younger women consider anyone over 30 as a middle-aged loser and a 'creepy older dude'. As for hypergamy being a reality---female relationship choices seem to indicate that 'going up' is the very thing they DO NOT do.

Still, 'focus on your life's goal' is good advice. There are women in other cultures who don't hate men; ignore the thug-chasers in our culture, and pursue worthwhile women instead.

Keoni G said...

I don't know about that. Most younger women consider anyone over 30 as a middle-aged loser and a 'creepy older dude'.

From what I see of the world, most guys over 30 or badly out of shape. Throw in the Great Depression 2.0, and most older, out of shape unemployed guys are definitely unattractive to younger women.

But guys who worked on themselves, kept in great shape, built up their bodies and their minds, and applied themselves to something that makes them independent and productive, are very attractive to younger ladies.

Be one of those guys and your time will come.

Anonymous said...

Keoni:
I AM one of those guys! LOL.

Younger Asian, Latina, and Eurogirls do find me attractive, in my experience. But man-hating, American women? Not in the least.

Anonymous said...

Keoni:
P.S. to above comment: I have also noticed that age is NOT a barrier for bad boys and dysfunctional males. Younger American women seem to have no issue with age for such males. It's only the independent, productive, and in-shape types that they seem not to like.

Keoni G said...

Younger American women seem to have no issue with age for such males.

Most, for sure.

Not all. The beauty of biding your time and developing yourself, is that when you get a little older and are still in great shape and doing something productive with your life, you will be much more discerning and discriminating in picking your women to get involved with.

Don't mistake me...expat or importing feminine women is certainly a fine option. I have a friend who went to South America and brought home a knockout beauty of a wife who cooks, cleans and is pleasant, intelligent and easy to talk to.

Those are getting harder and harder to find domestically in today's Brave New World Order "1st World" society, that's for sure.

Anonymous said...

Keoni:
Most guys who've expatted or imported wives have the only successful relationships I've ever seen! LOL Good women, do exist, just not in our neighborhoods...

'Most, for sure. Not all.'

True, but the math is hard to get around. I live in a metro-area of nearly 2 million people. If there are 12 or 16 American women here worth pursuing, how does it help? You see the problem. The odds of being hit by lightning are better than a single man ever meeting a decent American woman.

thewomanandthedragon said...

Even just reading the nice-guy list is a libido-killer.

Also, I have noticed that Churchians love espousing the whole "helping out around the house to put her in the mood" idea - this is crap. No woman anywhere, ever, got turned on by a man doing housework, I don't care if her Love Language is "Acts of Service" or not. Of course husbands should help out around the house sometimes, just don't expect it to be foreplay, regardless of what you may have read on the Focus on the Family forums.

- sunshinemary

Anonymous said...

Sunshinemary:
It is seriously doubtful that women, in our culture at least, are turned on sexually by men at all:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,857838,00.html

Which, according to this study, 3/4 of US females have no sexual feelings whatsoever. Considering again that hatred of men underpins female attitudes, this shouldn't be surprising.

Amy Haines said...

@Anon 10:26 pm, I could not open the article, but does it mention what percent of women on hormonal birth control (pill, patch, Mirena, Depo) reported low to no libido?

HBC is a libido killer. I took it for a few years and it made sex feel like a chore. No pleasure in it, and it made me feel disgusted by my partner. After I stopped taking it, I was less angry and uptight and felt more sexual and feminine rather than masculine. Messing with your hormones is bad news all around. Nature, genetics, and miseducation aside, I am certain that HBC is driving a lot of dysfunctional female behavior.

van Rooinek said...

why would you want to date a vegan?

I wouldn't. That was always an instant deal breaker for me in my dating days. If she was going to be the mother of my children, she damned well better eat animal foods. Memo to the still-single: a steakhouse is a great place for a first date...

BTW I discuss vegetarianism ("phytorexia") in an old spearhead post... for your amusement --

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2011/11/17/professional-women-burning-out-by-30/#comment-119735

MuleChewingBriars said...

Just curious, vanRooinek, what you would make of the Orthodox -

We are vegan 40% of the year, but vegetarianism is discouraged for the laity. The idea of such rigorous fasting before the major feasts is to "allow the body and the soul to rejoice together"

when I discussed this with my doctor and a nutritionist, they were of the opinion that such a regimen was healthier than either straight vegetarianism or an uninterrupted omnivorous diet.

van Rooinek said...

Vegan 40% of the year, inescapably means high carb 40% of the year... bad for me, that's for sure. Maybe okay for others.

thewomanandthedragon said...

@Amy,
I just posted almost the mirror image of your comment somewhere else, and then clicked over here to see that you had said the same thing. Yes, HBC is horrible for many reasons, not the least of which is the death of one's sex drive. Complementarian Loners just put up a nice post on the D/s dynamic, which is part of the equation, too.

@Anon - couldn't open the link, but it doesn't surprise me that powerful women have a decrease in their sex drive. If she acts like a man all day, it's hard to turn into a girl at night.

-sunshinemary

Anonymous said...

Amy & Mary;
I don't think the article mentioned those narcotics, but given the fact that Big Pharma is a huge advertiser with 'Time' I suppose that connection was swept under the rug. Given the addiction rate of American women to prescription dope, it wouldn't surprise me if chemical dependency was a contributing factor, along with the psychological issues.

The dope pushers at Big Pharma are huge promotors of the 'gender wars' and feminism. The profits they rake in from exploiting sexual dysfunction, the breakdown of the family, abortion, &c. are enormous.

Anonymous said...

Actually, my observations and experience three things that men do that are complete turn-offs to women:

1. Showing any signs of literacy or intelligence;

2. Smelling like soap;

3. Holding worthwhile, productive, and steady employment.

Turn-ons for women are the opposite of the above three; and substance abuse, a criminal record, and a history of mental illness are huge bonuses. If illegitimate kids and violence against women are included, any guy becomes an automatic 'chick magnet'. LOL

ElectricAngel said...

HL,

That's one fine-lookin' woman up there at the top of this post. Of course, she knows it, so supplicating to her won't win her.

Anonymous said...

Electric Angel:
What few pro-MRA women understand is that the dating/relationship scene in America is an unmitigated hell for most men. The reason so many men act supplicating like that---even to complete bitches who treat them like garbage---is none of us want to go back into that hell again if the realtionship fails.

Anonymous said...

The news this morning mentioned that the NFL has reinstated Travis Henry, a Denver running-back after he finished three years in the pen for cocaine trafficking.

The article mentioned that Henry was the father of 11 children (doubtful they're all from the same mother).

Yet, we're confidently assured that women really DO prefer good men to thugs. Think about all those pro athletes who haven't been 'bad boys'---still single and childless in many cases. So much for the 'bigger, better deals' whom women supposedly want. Their inclinations are to gravitate towards the lowest and worst of males in any situation.

dannyfrom504 said...

good stuff as usual Keoni.

i was walking past the ER waiting area and the ped's area has a tv that always has disney. i watched one of the show for 5 minutes and i felt physically i''l the way the boys are just hapless little cows. and the girls are these super empowered bad-asses ridiculing the boys.

sad, just sad.

Anthony said...

'The reality of hypergamy means most of the women will be focused on the older guys while you remain invisible.'

I don't know about that. Most younger women consider anyone over 30 as a middle-aged loser and a 'creepy older dude'.


A guy who's 18, and interested in college-age (18-22) girls face pretty stiff competition from guys who are 25-30. At 25, you're done with college, have a job, and your own place, maybe even without roommates. That's *way* better than most college guys have, and 25 - 30 isn't so old that you're the creepy old guy. (According to Maxim Magazine, you become invisible to 18-year-old girls at 32, but not before.) Also, by about age 22-25, men will have figured out a lot more about themselves, and between that and being financially independent, will have *way* more true self-confidence than most college guys.

Anonymous said...

Anthony:
Not a single one of those qualities appeal to women. In fact, by the logic of hypergamy, men over 32 should be even more appealing to younger women.

Women in our culture hate men and see us all as inferiors. There's no such thing as 'hypergamy' because a man is considered a subhuman, no matter what his status.

Most younger women would prefer, like their older counterparts, to chase thugs; but sometimes for short-advantage they'll tolerate a normal guy. But that's over as soon as she's gotten what she wants from him.

Anonymous said...

My experiences indicate otherwise.
I had plenty of successes with women in their twenties well into my thirties; my wife is nine years younger than me.
I will say that a combination of conservative Christianity (if there's any other kind) and our feministic society has a tendency to force men to be either slaves or eunuchs.
I am neither. I am completely unashamed of normal, natural desires, and though I have manners, breeding, and tact, I am not afraid to stand up to my wife, nor to lead our family as I see fit.
It does help, I think, if one has a good solid job, valuable skills, and spends some time in the gym, building physical strength and improving one's appearance.
All of which is hard work - very difficult sometimes.
But it's also quite rewarding and enjoyable.
It's GOOD to be a man. It's good to be able to support your family, or to find an attractive mate, or to solve problems through reasoning, technical ability, and strength.
That's why we're here on this earth - not to simper our way into a sky paradise, but to transcend weakness and raise better humans, building a better world while enjoying the journey.

Anonymous said...

Anon712:
Unless you dated and married non-American women I doubt this very highly.

Frankly, my experiences with American women have been that they have nothing but contempt for handsome, successful and strong men. In contrast perverts, criminals, and thugs have a sexual and reproductive success rate far above any average man.

That's nearly a self-evident statement. The only happily-married men I know of married outside the culture. American women are incapable of positive feelings for men.