Sunday, September 9, 2012

The Zeta Point

Roosh writes this, and Paul Elam responds.

Two standard bearers of differing factions in the same general reactionary/anti-misandry/anti-feminist culture movement, disagreeing on varying different points of view. Each one presenting what they believe to be their particular version of THE TRUTH.

Both are their own way and from their personal point of view.

Both have their share of supporters, fans and sycophants eager to voice their support and affirmations for their chosen champions point of view.

I'm an avid reader and supporter of both men and there blogs and/or forum, and both spheres they appear to represent. It essentially boils down to the pro-game vs. anti-game camps of the general anti-feminist reaction to mainstream, socially engineered, mass media disseminated and narrated culture.

Can we all just get back to focusing on the real enemy of this so-called "movement?"

Roosh vs. Elam....whose side do I take here?

I'll take Dan Moore's...aka Factory, replying to Elam's farewell to the "manosphere" -

We go around and around like this because the ‘answer’ doesn’t lie in any one camp. The center of gravity the various groups cannot escape is what I call the Zeta Point.

The point of balance between the need for female approval, and enough self worth to walk away from disrespect.

Between the need to maintain some form of civilization, and the strength to throw the parts that are destructive on the trash heap.

Between love for women as counterparts, and the reality they have become competitors.

MRAs can teach others valuable lessons. But it’s imperative we remember that others have just as many lessons, that are just as important, to teach us.

Yes. All of us in this anti-feminist/anti-misandrist counter-culture here in the hinterlands of teh interwebz are focused on some facet of MRA - Men's Rights Awareness. You cannot have meaningful, personal activism, without awareness...aka a clear understanding of truth.

As I wrote back when Frost and Elam had first agreed to have their game/anti-game debate at In Mala Fide:

I don't think anything good is going to come from the pending debate between Frost and Elam. It's just going to further fracture the manosphere.

But that's ok.

There's no "winning" here.

What it will do, is provide clarity, so the onlookers can decide which "side" here offers them the viewpoint to improve their own lives and their own struggles.
Dan Moore goes on to clarify the point further:

I am a proponent of Game Theory, and believe a huge swath of the MRM could use an awful lot of education on women and their behaviour.

And why things went the way they did in their own lives.

The real value in Game theory is not in becoming a PUA (although, as I have said many times, the ‘starved for affection folks’ are the ones easily manipulated into selling men out wholesale), it is in understanding the basic drives in all of us, and how those drives tend to make us act.

Basically, Game theory picks up where the politically correct Masters and Johnson crowd feared to tread. Game theory utterly destroys many of the cultural myths indoctrinated into our society nearly from birth.

And anyone who has ever paid attention to the theory knows exactly how hard it is to penetrate the initial resistance to the ideas, as well as the sick feeling when Game is proven right.

And the even sicker feeling when you see all the spots you fucked up in previous encounters.
Oh so painfully clearly.

Oh so clearly. FML.

Game is an essential component of the Red Pill, and in many cases is more then enough counter-cultural medicine to do the job.

In the early 00's, the MRA online movement was essentially a small group of male bloggers, most who've been screwed over by women, feminism, and/or our Brave New World Order's family court system. The convergence of the MRA bloggers and the Game Advocacy movement over at the comment section of Roissy in D.C.'s blog several years ago was the essential turning point. It melded the truth of the corruption of the system, with the truth of the basic biological nature of male/female attraction....and it spawned what we now call THE MANOSPHERE.

We had a small period of time in which we had a unique harmonic convergence of ideas that coalesced into a new, broader understanding of the the things we've all experienced in our present socially engineered dystopia. Then, like any group of men, the need to jockey for status amongst the hierarchy causes divisions, and we divide and conquer ourselves.

This is why their can be no "movement." There is only recognizing TRUTH and using that to guide your own personal life decisions. Find your personal Zeta is there that you find that elusive balance...the path to a meaningful, satisfying life.

Life is a gamble..completely unpredictable. You could die getting hit by a car while crossing the street tomorrow. You could die in your sleep tonight in a completely random house fire started by an errant spark from your light socket igniting nearby curtains. (yes, this almost happened to me....). We all have choices to make. We must weigh our odds, make our judgements, and then decide on a course of action. Having the clarity of truth will certainly have a profound and meaningful effect in making such choices. You may very well meet a young woman who is all that and worth sacrifice and risk to get married to and have children with. Or she may be a manipulative slut looking for an easy provider to blind with her sexuality long enough to lock him into divorce chilimony servitude.

 The important thing here is that any man facing such a choice, be able to recognize the realities of his personal situation, and make the best choices based on the most facts available to him at that time. Which is why both facets of OUR "manosphere" are important. They are largely focused on their areas of primary concern, each serving as a valuable resource in gaining understanding of the big picture.

This is all any of us can hope to achieve.

There is no candidate running for office that you can vote for to advance the idea of "men's rights."

There is no political party you can join, no "tea party" rally you can attend or no organization or cause that you can donate your money to that is going to make a damn bit of difference in our current state of affairs.

There is no possibility of working within our current system to "fix" what's wrong.

That's because there's nothing to fix.

From the view of those who have implemented the system and constructed our current situation, this shit is going off exactly as planned.

The people who wield the power in our society have deliberately shaped it to emasculate the males, de-feminize the females, sow relationship dysfunction and alienate children from their parents so as to make them more malleable and exploitable human resources.

They effected their social engineering program precisely through the creation of "movements." You think getting a bunch of men and women (who thanklessly support them) together to try and effect change in this system is ever going to accomplish anything meaningful?

Not happening.

No matter who is right or who is wrong, the only correct answer here is MGTOW.

Go your own way. Find the truth and make your life-changing decisions cognizant of it so you are properly prepared to face the consequences of whatever path you may choose.

You wanna be a PUA? Good luck Brother, I wish you the best!

You wanna be an MRM advocate and start up a movement that lobbies to overturn the officially sanctioned misandry of our current society? Amen! Good luck Brother, I wish you the best!

I really don't see any point to be gained in focusing on the differences in outlook between the two camps.

Whatever works for YOU is the only thing anyone should be primarily concerned with.


Wald said...

Have you read anything from this website before?

dannyfrom504 said...

i posted along the same line a few days ago. thanks for posting this Keoni. i just linked it.

you DEFINITELY make the point better than i do. we really need more solidarity among the bloggers. this internal bickering is bitch shit. we have a MUCH bigger goal than trying to see who's dick is bigger.

please........let's play nice guys.

stay up.

Fidel Naidoo said...


You have penned an excellent article.
This is something that strikes a nerve in me.
My history, is that I got into game about 7 years back, and was amazed, disturbed, and felt a bit of power in my dating life, which I had never felt before.
That was the beginning of the red pill for me.
Once I felt confident in my dating and relationships, I slipped further down the rabbit-hole into the MRA circles, which is where I hang out now. It is all that I thought in my previous life, but felt that I was somehow odd, because no-one else seemed to see the hypocrasy that I saw.

To me, every time Roosh says MRA's are losers, and every time Paul Elam says PUA's are pussy beggars, a bit of me feels like throwing in the towel, and all of me feels like "WTF !!! grow up, you MTFKs!! We are all as one, with different ways of coming at the situation...."

Keoni.... Thanks for putting the way I feel so well.

Cane Caldo said...

I disagree, Danny. Play nice? No.

You have it exactly backwards: Internal bickering is decidedly manly; not bitch shit. Bitches affirm each other, and then do the opposite. Bitches give each other esteem, then turn around and mock that same woman. Bitches tell one woman, "You go, girl!", and then tell another woman, "She's such a slut."

Play hard. Test, and be tested. This is the strength of the Manosphere. It is the strength of men.

Steve Canyon said...

There is no right answer, and there is no wrong answer, because for each man, the answer is different.

I'm a firm believer that game works, but only works if you maintain it. In essence, once you start playing the "game", you must continue to do so forever. Some men find it easier to internalize the game mindset than others. I also strongly suspect those who are best able to learn and utilize game are younger men who haven't had the number of life experiences compound to the point where there's a complete distrust and aversion to women and all things female. It's not dependent on age per se, rather, it's dependent on one's own level of tolerance and how much one will take before one says "it's not worth it."

If the man hasn't reached that point, game will make a valuable contribution to his quality of life. If he has said to himself "enough is enough", he's probably going to find more value in the MGTOW philosophy.

Anonymous said...

I don't believe in Game, but I'm not a huge fan of the Fathers Rights, 'let's equalize the misery' movement either. To me, Mens Rights Awareness is about self-defense. Since the reality of our culture is fixated on denegration and hatred of men, the way for men is to dissociate themselves from it as much as possible.

That doesn't mean necessiarily shunning women. Shunning feminists, though, yes---including the Tradcon Feminists.

The problem with both these camps is that they are rooted in ideology. Almost by definition, the Fathers Rights side has to align itself with Social Conservatives; meaning they oppose any MRA who questions socially conservative tenets.

Game is basically nothing more than applied psychology, ---IOW, a scientific theory--- and like all theories is open to question and discussion. But too many of its adherents worship it like a revelation. People don't even agree on evolution vs. creation, much less on Sociology.

Maybe the 'Zeta Point' should revolve around anti-feminism rather than political or ideological cultishness.

Anonymous said...

Keoni, you have articulated what was my initial reaction to this spat as well.

However, I think it speaks to a wider point. As I have mentioned before over at Dalrock's place, this reflects the 'equal but opposite' nature of male and female power.

Women joined together to make 'the personal political', and used the resultant power to promote the changes to society that have produced the feminised sewer that we all (men and women) now have to live in.

For men, the opposite is now true - the political is personal. Men may be led by their dicks (just as women are led by the gina tingles) but broadly speaking we are rational creatures. And men are simply doing what they have always done; surveying their environment, understanding it and behaving accordingly. For some this may mean PUA, others Game, others MRA, others MGTOW.

The fact is that now, when millions of men - individually, each coming to their own conclusions - in many different countries and cultures all start adopting a variation on a single, simple theme - indifference towards what women want or even towards women themselves - they are making the political personal. Every girl Roosh bangs, every Game insight Rollo documents, every time the Captain fires up his motorbike for a new adventure, every time Paul scores a hit for men's rights, they are making the political personal. Every one of these actions cuts at the heart of feminism.

I agree with Cane above - the bickering, the jockeying for position - these are male traits, the way we figure out the truth, what works and what is most effective.

But there is something else to realise in all this. Women are herd animals; this is why the feminists were able to corral them together in the first place. But it is also their weakness. When feminism stops working for them, they will drop it like it never happened. I suspect that some feminists realise this and I'm sure it keeps them awake at night.

Men are pack animals - the fractured nature of men's social groups is why men where not able to stand together to repel the feminist onslaught. But it is also our strength. The disparate and divergent nature, and most importantly, the individual nature of men’s response to feminism means that there is no single target to be attacked, no organisation to discredit, no killer blow that can be delivered.

IMO the end result of all this will actually be nothing to do with women. It will simply be about enabling men to make lifestyle decisions based on the true nature of men, women and society. As more men take the red pill, the expectations of a feminised society and the desires of women will increasingly be at the margins of these decisions.


Anonymous said...

Dalrock is really a conservative version of RooshV, as far as that goes. He's been fanning the flames with his 'anti-Game is anti-Christian' rhetoric as much as anybody.

That being said, you're right about the tendencies to conflate gender equality with gender polarity. There's no such thing as gender equality, but gender polarity is the basis of civilization; and that feminism will collapse when women realize that they've been fed a disinformation program and that it doesn't really work. How to get to that point needs the efforts of men to break from the herd.

NO MA'AM said...

You know what’s going to happen, don’t you, HL?

Anonymous said...

Hey Keoni, I have been a longtime reader of the manosphere (started with Roissy in 2009) and I have now started a blog:

Right now I only have a hasty first post up and my blog hasn't been properly formatted, but I'd be grateful if you could link to me.

- Tom

Anonymous said...

PMAFT and TFH are a pair of lying ass-hats. Anybody who's been in the MRM long enough is on to their lies.

Just like those knotheads RooshV and Krauser talk about sex because they never have really have any; PMAFT blabs on about false flags because he's probably a false-flagger himself.

As for the Fifth Horseman he rides on---the guy's an impotent retard looking for attention because he hasn't done anything worthwhile since he wrote one article. He even got banned on AVfM, which is saying a lot considering the comment quality over there.

finndistan said...

To say the truth, I was listening to AvFM up until the beginning of summer. Since then have not listened. And have not even checked their episode listings.

I see AvFM as a necessity to open the eyes of the blind, but that is where it stops. For more advanced knowledge, one must then move to the spearhead, which recently, at last, took a less whiney, more aggressive stance, but even that is not enough. Then one must move on to more specialized blogs, like yours, like Alpha Game, like Vox, and any other blogger who is not trying to be a cureall.

In the last fight between Game and MRA (as represented by Elam), I got jaded.

MRA is good, it is necessary, it may be the way to get some laws in place that will provide some fairness. But MRA will not show the individual man the causes.

This is where game enters. For the individual man it is more of a necessity than the MRA crowd.

While MRA is shouting "things are bad, we need to change this and that", things that can be put into effect only after a long term of collaborative effort, game (differing in approach), gives a man "Look, things are bad, and they are bad because woman's nature is this, your nature is this, society conditions you like this. To overcome this and this and this, you need to do this and this and this.", the results almost immediate, due to receiving and understanding of what was left in the dark for the man's past 15-30...50? years of life. Want to go MGTOW after that knowledge? Please Do. Want to game the fuck out, please do.

But these two options are not available by the MRA who is interested in fighting with the Gamers, and a MGOTW going MGOTW without a full understanding is just making things difficult on himself.

Not all men are suited for the knowledge of Game/nature/sexuality, but these men will also not be suited for MRA wisdom.

As luck has it, these men will benefit from others Gaming the shit out, or the others forcing laws into power.

"Dude, women have been opressed" and "Dude, game is manipulation" men will both be benefactors of changing custody laws, or yet unclear effects of game making it to 1% of men. Effects that are unclear to me, but which will be there nevertheless.

And here I do see Roosh as taking an extreme, but Roosh is then not supported by the MRA inclination of Vox, Roissy, Donlak etc. There are more sexual nature bloggers who understand the problem the MRA's are trying to solve, than there are MRA's who understand that many of their problems are caused by, or can be solved by an understanding of the male sexuality, female sexuality and society, and the extensive web of lies woven in front of men's eyes, spanning these three corners.

MRA cannot tell a man why that woman is pregnant with some other's spawn, sexual nature can,

Gamers cannot help a man with a false rape allegation, MRA potentially could.

If these two go into an infighting, forgetting the real enemy, it is men who will loose.

And here I blame Elam and the other MRAs, who by their definition are the wiser ones, denigrating the rooshyites to pussy chasers.

If you take the high ground of wisdom, you also take the responsibility to guiding the ones you deem beneath you.

MGTOW, Gamers, MRAs are all birds tied to the same stone sinking in the festid waters of feminized society, and the only way they will breathe again is if they work in unison.

Anonymous said...

Yes both men and women can't get along in groups unless they're forced and conditioned to by strong leadership such as in a sports team or the military.

Women undermine each other but they do it passive-aggressively and behind the back. Men are overt and aggressive in their struggle for position.

Unless some weird miracle happens the manosphere will always have varying degrees of this stratification and infighting. It seems to be getting worse lately. I've noticed the angry, paranoid segment of the manosphere has been making more and more noise. I personally avoid them.

We talk about the flaws of women, but have you seen men? Been around them for any length of time? Many of them are the biggest assholes. They take pride in it, and try to be the biggest assholes they can possibly be.

For example: who are the trolls of the internet? Men. I've very rarely come across female internet trolls (and if they are it's more mild and subtle). Some guys absolutely love being a disruptive asshole, ruining shit, undermining shit. They smirk and smile and get fulfillment.

There is no solution to that. You can write the greatest manosphere piece about how we "should all get along" and it wouldn't matter, that asshole is still looking for a way to undermine.

In my opinion the biggest trolls and disruptors of the manosphere are the anti-gamers. I'm not talking about people who have criticims of game, I'm talking about the ones who reject all discussion of male/female relationships like The Black Pill and Alek Novy. They do not want men talking about male/female relationships at all. Nothing, zilch, zip. And that's not a strawman, I don't care if they deny it.

I would advise men to stay away from them unless you want to wallow in misery. They're poison. They want men to fail. They want you to fail.

'Reality' Doug said...

HL, great post. You review the facts for readers to evaluate themselves and then give your opinion in context. I was wondering what/when was the exact start of the manosphere. Zeta point is an intelligent concept as is making the 'A' mean Awareness. Awareness is the unity. We must assume NWO trolls are sent to confuse. waste, and harness our efforts. Yes, the system is NOT broken. It must go for civilized men to be free. Comes down to the useful idiots being removed. A bureaucrat or tyrant is a dime a dozen. Useful idiots are sheep who will always elevate shepherds who will always prefer meat to wool. At least with lawless wolves the sheep are forced into DIY politics. Every philosophy becomes dogma to the masses who know recipes not reasons. Civilized men must discriminate ruthlessly to discriminate wisely, though the reverse is not true. If philosopher-kings do not band together, free civilization will not exist again. Mother nature will create that elbow room one way or another. The philosopher-kings, I'm not sure.

Anonymous said...

I disagree totally. Every time a call for unity goes up, it's the Game crowd who starts the attack again. It's not Elam and the MRAs who are pretending to be 'the wiser ones.' Dalrock, Roissy, Vox, all these guys imagine themselves (as your post makes clear) the 'real men' in the movement and consider the rest of us as losers.

This is because they are woman-centered men (i.e. manginas)whose self-worth depends on female validation.

Game proponents accept feminism as a 'reality' (another of their unproven assertions) and panders to feminists, up to, and including, attacking men's rights advocates.

To move forward, as you described, men need to learn to apply MGTOW and find their own way. This is a difficult task, not solved by pseudoscience and quick fixes like Game. Some good blogs for the next stage are ones like Antifemist, Fidelbogen, No Ma'am, and Anglobitch.

Anonymous said...

Here are a few quotes I found about you and your blog:

'Apparently hungering for attention, Rob Fedders launches attacks on me'

'There's really nothing on his blog that's coherent enough to argue against.'

'He derides anyone he doesn't like as a mangina, or something else less than masculine.'

Did those statements come from PMAFT or TFH? Actually they came from Futrelle's site. But it's really hard to tell the difference between Futrelle and those two anyway.

Justin said...

More typical attention whoring and drama-creation from the Gamer crowd. They are salesmen, literally, and nothing they say should be taken seriously, as it is all self-promotion.

Nestorius said...

It appears the Paul Elam is a Mason, and that he is getting paid for his website (as one commenter at Roosh's blog said).
In fact, it is expected that the Masons will be leading an anti-feminist movement. Feminism is the thesis and men rights movement is the antithesis out of which they will create the synthesis.
One thing that is very suspicious about AVfM is that it is full of sophistry and nonsense. The titles attracts you and make you believe there is content while there is none.

On the other hand Jack Donovan is a Satanist (therefore a Mason) and a homosexual. He doesn't hide the fact that he is a Satanist: Therefore, Donovan is clearly a dis-info agent. I never could understand how a homosexual is teaching men about manhood?!

One should always be careful that there will always be infiltration in every field, and the "manosphere" is a wide field which the Masons could use to indoctrinate clueless people out there.

Anonymous said...

@anon September 10, 2012 4:48 AM

"In my opinion the biggest trolls and disruptors of the manosphere are the anti-gamers. I'm not talking about people who have criticims of game, I'm talking about the ones who reject all discussion of male/female relationships like The Black Pill and Alek Novy. They do not want men talking about male/female relationships at all. Nothing, zilch, zip. And that's not a strawman, I don't care if they deny it.

I would advise men to stay away from them unless you want to wallow in misery. They're poison. They want men to fail. They want you to fail."

As difficult as it would be for a man, to a woman, life would be unbearable without relationships. This is why she shames, creates fear, and outright attacks, any man that entertains the notion of dropping his obsession of women.

It explains why she feels indifference, not hate, is the opposite of love.

Women are not aware of it, but they would rather have trolls around than have them abolished.

Anonymous said...

While it's true that Novy and the Black Pill are gadflies, it's nothing compared to the numbers of Game guys who are constantly ramming their theories down the Manosphere's throats.

'This is why she shames, creates fear, and outright attacks, any man who entertains the notion of dropping his obessions with women.'

Which is why Game/PUA plays right into the feminists' hands. These guys are obsessed with women and ALSO shame, create fear, and outright attack other men.

@Nestorius: Are you the Sixth Horseman? LOL

great service said...

Zeta Point is the Leader Gang's platform of functions and hideout. The name of Zeta Factor is a pun.

Anonymous said...

It gets worse. One of the PUA minions is bragging about getting a vasectomy and hearing effusive praise from the other Gametards:

So I guess emasculation is now the goal to which men should aspire.

I know that this thread began with a call for unity, but it may really be time to start considering whether the Game/PUA guys belong in the MRM at all.

Keoni Galt said...

I know that this thread began with a call for unity, but it may really be time to start considering whether the Game/PUA guys belong in the MRM at all.

Ummmm no, this thread did NOT begin with a call for's a call for individuality. For every man to look at these "sides" and figure out for themselves how they apply to their own situations.

Men's Rights Movement? There is no least not one that will make any real difference.

To reiterate what this OP was all about:

This is why their can be no "movement." There is only recognizing TRUTH and using that to guide your own personal life decisions.

You think PUA/Gametards are full of it? Fine, go read something else. Why bother visiting blogs like mine to denounce them anonymously?

Anonymous said...

Because invading other mens' blogs and denouncing non-Game/PUAs out of the blue is what they've been doing for the past couple of years. That's what killed the men's movement.

They got a small dose of their own medicine & didn't like the taste.

I like your blog, and will keep reading, but done commenting for now. I think the point was made.

Anonymous said...

What happened to your blog?
Did you take it down?

Anonymous said...

PMAFT blabs on about false flags because he's probably a false-flagger himself.

Not only that, but I suspect that PM/AFT and White and Nerdy aka "Black Pill," are both the same guy!


- Both PM/AFT and Nerdy have the same bland, choppy, utilitarian writing style.

- Both hate conspiracy theorists and both cherry-pick and distort other peoples writing to discredit their enemies.

- Both of them like to make what he thinks is the most important posts on the blog into pages featured at the top of the header.

- Both are the same age - IIRC both have indicated they are in their early thirties.

- Both lack realism in their writing, whether it's PM/AFT talking about the girls he's gaming or Nerdy talking about his "successful" business. Their sparse narratives lack the kind of details that are indicative of honest prose.

- Both boost each other in odd ways; like Nerdy's repeated assertions that PM/AFT is the only "gamer" who is actually getting laid; yet Nerdy says game doesn't exist.

- Both regularly link to comments here at your blog, Keoni, whenever they post about conspiracy theorists.

- Both refer to Paleo diet as a scam and a diversion meant to derail or co-opt the MRM. Gee, thanks moron. Us guys can walk and chew gum at the same time! Just because some bloggers discuss a diet or lifestyle doesn't mean we have to ignore or quit the fight for men's rights!

I say both of these blogs are run by the same guy. False flagger or just some bitter, pathetic troll, they are both run by the same, pathetic douchebag in his mommy's basement, trying to create divisions and flame wars in the manosphere.

Keoni Galt said...

Now that's an interesting Conspiracy theory, Anon! lozlzlzolzolzol

Even if it were true, I don't see how either of them has made a huge impact on the MRM.

PMAFT has essentially been a one hit wonder with his SyFy piece when the Spearhead first started, and W&N is ridiculed by almost every new blogger that stumbles across his black hole of hate.

W&N tried to get Paul Elam to remove me from the AVFM blogroll and failed.

Neither has as much influence as they think they do.

Keoni Galt said...

LOL I now see that PMAFT has removed me from his blogroll, and no longer includes me on his list of Spearhead authors - despite my having the third most published articles of all contributors there not named Bill Price. lozolzolozl

I guess PMAFT disagreement with me over conspiracy theory has become personal for him. Oh's not like I ever got much traffic from him in the first place - yet if you look at his referral list, I'm second only to The Spearhead in sending traffic his way via my blogroll! LOL Wonder if he wants me to remove him from it?

PMAFT, if you're reading this, I think I get your message loud and clear! Peace out, Brother, I won't be bothering you anymore with traffic, comments or anything else.

Eric said...

Wow, I hadn't even heard of that guy until recently. Futrelle wrote a piece the other day about some silly article he'd written about women using litterboxes or something.

I checked out his blog and it's mostly bashing other MRAs. But, referencing Anon's comment above, I see he does support the URLs at Urinals campaign, so maybe those litterboxes can be put to good advertising use! LOL

Anbody interested in a REAL postering campaign should check out what John the Other from AVfM is doing up in Vancouver.

Anonymous said...

I also suspect that PM/AFT and The Fifth Horseman are the same person or working closely together. Both of them are involved in transhumanism. Both complain about a lack of activism. The writing styles are different, but The Fifth Horseman rarely writes for his blog so he could spend more time working in a different style. Their writing styles aren't that different.

PM/AFT has admitted to working in the defense establishment. The Fifth Horseman works in Silicon Valley which has a long history with the defense establishment.

This doesn't mean PM/AFT and The Fifth Horseman are the same person, but it's too much of a coincidence.

Eric said...

Like Keoni pointed out, both guys are essentially 'one-hit wonders' who made a big splash with one major article but haven't really produced much since (other than complaining a lot that nobody else is doing anything). LOL

I doubt they're the same person; it's probably more the 'birds of a feather' syndrome.

Anonymous said...

PMAFT, if you're reading this, I think I get your message loud and clear!

I'm not Pmaft's biggest fan and can't speak for his thought process, but WTF? He's done nothing, said nothing about you, and you think he has a secret fucking vendetta against you? What the fuck are you smoking in HI? How the fuck do you go from mocking a fucktard that thinks Paul Elam is a mason and gov employee to it's all about YOU? The only fucking way that could be is if you wrote it and you're paranoid about being discovered.

Maybe there is a fucking mundane reason why Pmaft had to remove his link to you.

Maybe he was testing if you were a paranoid prick. If that is so, you proved you are a paranoid prick.

Maybe he doesn't want to be associated with fucktards who think he runs 20 other blogs under different identities. That includes passive aggressive girls that call bullshit like that "an interesting Conspiracy theory"

Maybe Pmaft doesn't respect yellow bellied fucktards hiding behind "lozlzlzolzolzol" to avoid being called out on what they say. Maybe he only respects real men who stand up for their beliefs.

Maybe he has no time for fucktards who are too lazy and scared to FIGHT like men for their rights. Maybe he sees your calls for unity as the fucking bullshit they are since you think most of the manosphere is a false flag op:
I too have come to think a lot about the MGTOW/MRA/MRM/PUA blogosphere and how so many of them have become the dialectical opposition of the feminazi's most of us want to fight. The antithesis to the feminazi thesis. Creating a political "movement" would merely lead to a new synthesis.

It seems to me that we now have several "manosphere" blogs that I suspect are false flag operations designed to escalate the gender war and sow dissension amongst those of us striving to expose the truth and combat systemic injustices.

This is precisely why I have always opposed trying to form some sort of "movement" to try and effect political change.

Maybe Pmaft doesn't want to be next to a black hole of negativity and hopelessness.

Maybe he doesn't want to accept an oath of fealty to the paleo diet.

Maybe he doesn't like homophobic and antisemetic fucktards.

Maybe he has a life and doesn't have the time for girly conspiracy theorist gossip.

Maybe there is a million more reasons that are all more likely than he is secretly persecuting you. Maybe Pmaft doesn't want to be near your persecution complex.

Nestorius said...


The fact that PMAFT admits to working for Defense and the fact that he denies the possibility of Paul Elam being a disinfo agent makes it clear that he is one of those disinfo agents out there, regardless whether he has no great impact.

On the other hand, "The Thinking Houswife" has the All Seeing Eye, i.e. Lucifer's eye, on its header. So here is another Mason revealing herself.

Keoni Galt said...

I'm not Pmaft's biggest fan and can't speak for his thought process, but WTF? He's done nothing, said nothing about you, and you think he has a secret fucking vendetta against you?

WTF? lozlzolol he removed all links to my blog from his, so I merely responded in kind.

Maybe he sees your calls for unity as the fucking bullshit they are

Hello dude, haven't I said it over and over and over and over again...on this very post? I don't believe in unity. I don't believe joining one is the answer. I only believe the only thing any man can realistically do is GO YOUR OWN WAY.

...since you think most of the manosphere is a false flag op:

Most? I merely expressed the thought that I would not be surprised if SOME of the manosphere blogs where false flags. I have never accused anyone specifically, and I would never do so unless I had real proof to back up such an assertion.

Maybe there is a million more reasons that are all more likely than he is secretly persecuting you. Maybe Pmaft doesn't want to be near your persecution complex.

Persecution complex? LOL this is teh interwebz. Really. This is amusing up to a point.

I don't think PMAFT gives a shit about me not linking to him anymore...why do you care?

BTW - I don't edit or delete comments here, except for obvious spam. Just because I don't respond to anonymous comments or people insulting others in my comment section doesn't mean I endorse or agree either.

I don't know if PMAFT is a false flagger or not, and I really don't care. He's written a few articles I've liked over the years, and I've always thought we were basically on the same side in terms of being anti-Feminist.

Maybe he was testing if you were a paranoid prick. If that is so, you proved you are a paranoid prick.

lozlozlzol. Why do YOU care so much? Why aren't you over at his blog asking him why he removed my links and ask if he's being a paranoid prick?

I really don't give a shit to go any further into this kind of drama. Life's too short to waste it on this kinda teenage mean-girls clique type of bullshit.

Maybe Pmaft doesn't respect yellow bellied fucktards hiding behind "lozlzlzolzolzol" to avoid being called out on what they say.

You must be the same Anon that asked me to name some blogs specifically when I stated I thought SOME Manosphere blogs MAY be false flags.

I don't do slander based on nothing but my own suspicions. As I said earlier, unless I had verifiable evidence, I'm not going to name names.

Eric said...


An oath of fealty to the paleo-diet?

Dude, I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, drink coffee every morning and make it a positive rule to eat pizza at least twice a week. Keoni hasn't banned me for any of that LOL

'Creating a movement would merely lead to a new synthesis.'

Exactly what's your beef with that statement? A 'movement' by its definition has a leadership structure committed to a set ideology. Do you want someone telling you 'believe such-and-so and follow this-and-that or get out of the movement'? MGTOW is about each finding his own way to the common goal, using the best methods suited to himself.

For that matter, MRAs who go around looking under matresses for paleo-dieters, so-called 'conspiracy theorists' and what-not sound a lot more paranoid to me.